July 8, 2020

*** This hand was suggested by Jazzselke
70*-73  ?
69%
16%
11%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
Total votes: 213
james500
3917 votes

Joined: June 2013

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:12 AM
A greater no of helpful cuts for 2-3-4-9 (5-9h), but an extra pre-cut point for 2-4-9-9 (3-5).

The 5 seems wasted in 2-3-4-5 (9-9) where it's only worth a single point.
thelawnet
262 votes

Joined: January 2020

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:38 AM
Strongest pegging hand with lots of low cards but not one long run. Have an 11 for 31-2 following e.g. k9q2

99 to crib not great and 5 not doing much in our hand. 35 better in crib but 2 9s not too clever for pegging here.
mrob2199
1429 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:42 AM
Prefer the 5-9 to the 9-9 here-the 2-3-4-9 allows us great pegging flexibility-offensive pegging should be the course of the day today
Eolus619 says: Rob...thank you for your insight on the toss. I chose 9-9 but I have to ask myself WHY did I NOT see what you have said in my analysis of what to toss ..whew
mrob2199 says: Bruce many good cases have been made for other good holds today-especially mike and Ras-2 excellent players-there have been occasions where I have read someone else’s logic for a particular hold and reassessed my own thinking of the hand-that’s why this site is such a valuable tool for improving our games
glmccuskey
4095 votes

Joined: April 2011

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:45 AM
Like Rob, I prefer the 5-9. With my opponent already at 73 I’ll peg offensively.
Eolus619 says: Please see what I said to Rob...I have lots to learn about this game
Rosemarie44
2052 votes

Joined: March 2016

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:53 AM
I'll be the odd woman out this morning. I like this hand for offense and every cut increases the value of these cards.
dec
6352 votes

Joined: April 2008

 
 
 
Wednesday 4:06 AM
Need a few tricks at our disposal whether it be a dozen possibility in our hand or pegging offensively here. Three hearts in our crib now by the way. I am to believe the pegging has to be more offensive now. dec
Eolus619 says: Please see what I said to Rob...I have lots to learn about this game
JQT
4143 votes

Joined: October 2008

 
 
 
Wednesday 4:27 AM
We are the First player to become the Dealer at or beyond Hole 70, which is the Third Street 'target' or 'par' hole in Positional Cribbage. But what does this MEAN?

Basically, it means that before we look at our cards, that by dealing from Hole 70 (before our Opponent does so) that we have approximately a 50% chance of reaching the Finish Line or Hole 121 during two more CYCLES of play (see my lengthy description from a few days ago regarding CYCLES, "Three Counts," and "Twenty-Six Theory"). Suffice it to say here that 70 plus 26 plus 26 equals 122.

But we have a lot of board left, and as I mentioned, this prediction can be made *before* we look at our cards; and all it really means is that we're "on track" to achieve the above about 50% of the time; it means not much else.

Some players would translate this into a comment such as, "We're Winning" (I'd rather say we're "NOT Losing" but it's difficult to discern the difference, I'll admit). I think we might agree that it means we probably would not swap positions with our Opponent, even though we do appear to be trailing by an 'absolute' number of Three Holes.

And so, let us look at our cards! We have this wonderful dilemma of whether to retain the "Long" RUN of Keep (2 3 4 5) and 'stash' the plain Toss (9 9) into our Crib, or we could instead Keep (2 3 4 9) and Toss (5 9) today. Clearly, one choice ought to be better than the other!

We could also maybe examine Toss (3 5), super-charging Our Crib, with also an apparently-good Hand, but at the expense of the future GROWTH of Our Hand, since only 'same-ranking' Cuts would greatly boost (2 4 9 9).

Retaining the 5 Card "in hand" adds an immediate One Point to said Hand, and it stashes Two Points in the form of a PAIR into Our Crib. However, after Toss (5 9), we retain an extra (15-2) or Two Points "in hand," and we place a 5 Card into Our Crib, which shall reliably ALWAYS generate Two Points in some kind of future fashion.

This means that either Toss (5 9) or Toss (3 5) looks to possibly be at least EQUAL on BOTH fronts! But after Toss (9 9), we could generate a much better Hand and/or Crib after certain Cuts. As far as pegging, I see a small but reliable advantage with Keep (2 3 4 5) today.

If we were backed into a DEFENSIVE posture here, I might easily Toss (5 9) or Toss (3 5) and 'hedge' a bit, but I don't yet see the need to become too entrenched in a DEFENSIVE mindset while sitting atop Hole 70. There are relative scores in which Toss (5 9) or Toss (3 5) would perhaps be superior, but I don't believe this to be one of them.

Thus, let's Keep (2 3 4 5) and Toss (9 9), and Keep It Simple, and not shock those players standing behind us, at least not just yet! We should try to respond from our three-card "Magic Eleven" of (2 4 5) after either a "Dime" or Nickel" lead by Pone, and that's trivial after any Ten Card (or "X"), since we'll simply grab the easy (15=2); but after a 5 Card Lead, we should probably play our Deuce in order to *still* have the running tally optimized for also later possibly reaching (31=2).
dgergens says: I'm seeking clarification on your statement, "If we were backed into a DEFENSIVE posture...." My understanding of offense/defense (in this forum) means make as many points as possible/slow the opponent down as much as possible. But that usually applies to deciding what to put in the dealer's crib as pone. Since we are the dealer here, why would tossing 5 9 or 3 5 in our own crib be considered a defensive posture? As always, thanks for sharing your insights.
thelawnet says: 2345 risks conceding points from runs which with 2349 2499 we might avoid. If we were being defensive we'd want to avoid 7 card runs, say
JQT says: Yes, thelawnet says it more concisely and at least as eloquently as I might have. Since we are atop the 'par' hole, we should play OFFENSE. But it would be possible to construct many relative positions, especially on Fourth Street, in which I would probably Toss (3 5).
Jazzselke says: JQT a little surprised by your hold: 1. You just talked about splitting a 5 off a run, and 2. you're not usually crazy about throwing pairs! I know, every hand is different.....
JQT says: This is the beautiful and wonderful and paradoxical world of Cribbage! Keep (2 3 4 5) is helped by ALL 46 Cuts, and goes from Four Points to: 6 Points (7777, 99), 7 Points (AAAA), 8 Points (8888, TTTT, JJJJ, QQQQ, KKKK), 9 Points (6666), 10 Points (222), 12 Points (333, 444, 555). Taking the Hand Total produced by all possible Cuts times all resultant Points from those Cuts and then dividing this by the number of all possible Cuts translates to 398 DIV 46 equals an Expected Average of 8.65 points for the Hand, and about 5 Points for the Crib. There are several ways to boost the Crib: Toss (5 9) and Toss (2 5) have a Crib Value of about 5.5 Points; Toss (3 5) has a Crib Value of about 6.0 Points; Toss (4 5) has a Crib Value of about 6.5 Points; and Toss (2 3) has a Crib Value of about 7.0 Points! So if we simply look at Our Crib in isolation, at least FIVE OTHER DISCARDS can easily beat Toss (9 9)! But in the aggregate, with pegging included, I think Keep (2 3 4 5) and Toss (9 9) is the best we can do! The 5 Card as part of this four-card RUN is rather unique.
zeke76
1390 votes

Joined: August 2018

 
 
 
Wednesday 4:40 AM
Went with the run.
Gougie00
5724 votes

Joined: March 2008

 
 
 
Wednesday 5:11 AM
I chanced the 99 to keep the potential for a 12 hand. Every starter helps. The problem with keeping one or both of the 9s is the hand gets reduced to 5 points or you give away a 5.

Do I lead the 2 or the 3? If I lead the 2, I can probably get a 15-2 right away. The 3 lead would scare away any 5 reply.

Ras2829 says: Hi Gougie00: Who's got the deck?
Gougie00 says: Ugh ...
Ras2829
5147 votes

Joined: November 2008

 
 
 
Wednesday 5:13 AM
The 2-3-4-5 sequence is a good choice for the dealer as it repsresents nearly four potential pegs, increases in value with any cut, and doubles with the cut of any of those X-pointers. At hole 70, with opponent already at hole 73, there is nothing to defend. It's got to be off., off., off. from the outset. Move down the board with passion. You can do that "deadpan" also. Will play on the lead alhtough would pass up pairing a five if led.
HfxKen
881 votes

Joined: February 2020

 
 
 
Wednesday 5:23 AM
At 70 On my deal, I need to get as far down the board as I can. Every cut helps this hand and I should be able to pick up a few pegs
mfetchCT425
1395 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Wednesday 5:56 AM
I like this hold at this position today slightly better than 5-9. Improvement on every cut and four strong pegging cards to work with. Often find pone tossing a stray 6 into our crib (6-K, 6-Q, 6-10), which would be a nice help there. Will peg aggressively and pair a 2,3, or 4 lead. 5 or 6 lead would play the 2 to keep my remaining cards touching. 7 or 8 lead would play the 3. 9 lead would play the 2. Any face would play the 5 for 15-2.
mfetchCT425 says: Actually with a 9 lead 8 might play the 5 and keep my three small cards with the hope of picking up some nice pegs on the next play.
mfetchCT425 says: ‘8’ should say ‘I’ above.
Eolus619
1336 votes

Joined: June 2020

 
 
 
Wednesday 6:31 AM
The choice was between tossing 9-9 and 5-9. Keep the run ..toss 9-9..and 46 cards can help my hand . I read with interest all the comments....particularly from two VERY experienced players ...Rob & Ras...and say to myself what a challenging game cribbage is !
Rosemarie44 says: Hi Eolus619: For your information Ras won the JPW Open In Reno, NV 2019 beating out I believe 645 players. He doesn't toot his own horn. Cribbage World, April 2019 issue has a great picture of him on the cover and article. He has helped me tremendously with the game of cribbage.
Eolus619 says: I agree...a wealth of information from a very successful player
dgergens
938 votes

Joined: January 2018

 
 
 
Wednesday 7:00 AM
2345 has starting value of 6**, low crib (pot)ential good pegging pot, hight cut pot. 2499 has starting value of 8, some hope in the crib, but low cut pot. 2349 starting value of 7, some hope in the crib, and cut pot somewhere between previous two options. So 2349 is my compromise/hedged choice.
**Did I see/hear somewhere that the 5 in my hand will be worth 1 more point by the time we are done scoring?
JQT says: Yeah, that One Point comment I made was not really done so clearly, as I simply meant that until we see the Cut, the 5 Card only adds One Point to the RUN itself. Thus, it's really worth our while to at least investigate getting that 5 Card into Our Crib, as you have chosen. But the beauty (or frustration) of this puzzle is that I think at Hole 70, the 5 Card actually does belong in Our Hand today!
Rosemarie44 says: Hi dgergens: If I might add these are the pegging value of cards I learned from Ras: A-5 high value, 6789, moderate, J-low, TQK, no value. So holding 2345 (high value) you know are going to be good pegging cards. If you know this already, I apologize.
wasa
3013 votes

Joined: November 2014

 
 
 
Wednesday 7:12 AM
I prefer the 5 in my crib vs the single point in my hand. Plus, I prefer 5-9 over 9-9 in my crib. The cut of K appears to give us a total of 4 points - glad I didn't toss the 9-9 with that K cut!
Jazzselke
2583 votes

Joined: March 2009

 
 
 
Wednesday 7:19 AM
Held this hand in a playoff much and was questioned on the hold by 2 experienced players. My thinking was great pegging hand: a magic 11. with a 34 left for a possible 5 trap. I do see benefits of retaining either 2345 and 2499, although I still prefer the 2349. But I think it's a close call between all 3 options, which is why I posted the puzzle.
Eolus619 says: Thanks for,your puzzle and explanation. I see many experienced players have chosen as you have...which indicates to me I have a LOT to consider and learn
Jazzselke says: ...playoff nmatch!?...
Jazzselke says: MATCH!
SallyAnn3 says: ditto :)
JRCeagle78
1054 votes

Joined: June 2016

 
 
 
Wednesday 9:53 AM
Although all the starter cards will help this hand, I feel that I may have put myself at a slight disadvantage. The pegging potential is good if the pone has cards of similar rank, but I did not leave myself either an escapes card, or a card to push the play value. I have probably given the pone a "go", or worse a chance to put a run together. OOOOOPS !!
Ras2829 says: Hi JRCeagle78: If choosing an offense pegging strategy, you rconcern should be on the pegs you will score as dealer rather than those which might be scored by opponent. If choosing a defense pegging strategy, concern should be for the pegs scored by opponent with little regard for those scored by self. An optimal pegging strategy would fall right between those with net pegs the focus (dealer pegs less n/d pegs).
horus93
1281 votes

Joined: December 2017

 
 
 
Wednesday 12:21 PM
Offense to the cut, 86+ is the goal.
horus93 says: 2-3-4-5 has a five in hand, always better than a magic 11 in an offensive situation, and could lead into nice runs. But this keep has a magic 11 and a 5 trap (2345 also has the 3-4 but it's unlikely to come off with no high value card to advance the count).
Coeurdelion
5589 votes

Joined: October 2007

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:04 PM
I think it's between 2-3-4-9 (5-9H) and 2-3-4-5 (9-9):

2-3-4-9S: 5pts + 5¼pts (Schell: 5.43) = 10¼pts

2-3-4-5: 4pts + 5¼pts (Schell: 5.16) = 9¼pts

Potential:

2-3-4-9S: Improves with AAAA, 222, 333, 444, 555, 6666, 8888, 99 + 16xXs = 42 cuts = 42/46 = 91.3% up to 8/9/12pts with AAAA, 222, 333, 444, 6666, 99 = 19 cuts.

2-3-4-5: Improves with AAAA, 222, 333, 444, 555, 6666, 7777, 8888, 99 + 16xXs = 46 cuts = 46/46 = 100.0% up to 7/8/9/10/12pts with AAAA, 222, 333, 444, 555, 6666, 8888 + 16xXs = 40 cuts.

Position:

We're at third street positional hole and Pone is three points past it. I need to keep moving but also want to hold opponent back so I'll peg optimally.

Pegging:

Both hands will peg well but playing cautiously I think I prefer 2-3-4-9. It has a magic eleven and 3 low cards and a high card.

Summary:

2-3-4-9S has the better starting value by 1pt and although it is not guaranteed improvement it has a high number of cuts for improvement. However, 2-3-4-5 has guaranteed improvement has 40 cuts for 7-12pts and will peg well playing Offense but will be harder to defend with. Will it catch up the 1pt? I think it will so I'll throw 9-9.
HalscribCLX
5312 votes

Joined: February 2008

 
 
 
Wednesday 3:10 PM
At 70*-73 playing an Offense strategy for the pegging the dynamic expected averages and Win/Loss %s are:

_______________Our
Offense___Hand_Pegs_Crib_Total____W3 %____W4 %
2-3-4-5____8.65+3.96+5.02=17.63____12.9____48.1
2-3-4-9S___8.09+3.46+5.51=17.06____11.0____46.7
2-4-9-9____7.59+2.78+5.87=16.24_____9.8____45.2

Offense_______L3 %____L4 %
2-3-4-5________8.7_____30.3
2-3-4-9S_______8.3_____31.4
2-4-9-9________5.8_____29.2

2-3-4-5 is best for expected averages by 0.57pt and is appreciably best for Win %s. 2-4-9-9 is lowest for Loss %s but even so I'll select 9-9 to discard.

After the K cut I'll play Defense to the lead.
glmccuskey says: I have to question “defense to the lead”, with this hold and cut you’re only guarantee 11 points. That only gets you to 81. Unless your opponent has a big hand the advantage has to be to peg aggressively
Ras2829 says: HI gl;mccuskey: Agree wholeheartedly with you rassessment. In this position, knowing what we know after seing the starter card, "peg agressively"!
glmccuskey
4095 votes

Joined: April 2011

 
 
 
Wednesday 4:39 PM