May 21, 2020

*** This hand was suggested by James500
73*-84  ?
62%
17%
6%
6%
3%
2%
0%
0%
Total votes: 228
Andy (muesli64)
2223 votes

Joined: August 2009

 
 
 
Thursday 3:03 AM
Best compromise. We are badly behind. Cross the fingers!
JQT
4143 votes

Joined: October 2008

 
 
 
Thursday 4:11 AM
We just barely have a POSITIONAL ADVANTAGE here, since we are: Dealer at or beyond the Third Street Hole 70, and; Pone is concurrently a bit more than Ten Holes shy of the Fourth Street Hole 96, the Next Positional Hole. Whew, we have a precarious perhaps, yet a SLIGHT POSITIONAL ADVANTAGE.

But it's a VERY FRAGILE BALANCE today, since we are only Three Holes beyond target, and Pone is only Two Holes from having attained the NEXT target! One small hiccup on either side of the board today and all sorts of chaos may ensue.

Therefore, we wish to approach this in a very cohesive and balanced manner. If there is one discard I have written the MOST about, it would HAVE TO BE that most-popular of those 'Three Cousins' (as I am wont to call them) which include: Toss (3 4), Toss (6 7), and Toss (J Q).

But we have all kinds of confusion and complications 'thrown in' by James500, because that's the way he likes to roll! We have a FLUSH present, which entails Toss (4 7), which is not going to win any Beauty Contests, but is not altogether terrible at all.

Oh, and for those who occasionally regret NOT SEEING A FLUSH until they have already made their Discard Decision, there is one simple way to fix this problem: ALWAYS LOOK FOR A FLUSH, and you'll NEVER MISS A FLUSH! It's really that simple.

And we maybe have a temptation to look at Toss (2 K) and Toss (4 4) as well, and maybe even Toss (6 K) and Toss (2 6), too, all of which involve beginning with a 'static' Four Points overall. I don't really relish any of these alternate solutions as much as I like Toss (6 7) or the FLUSH idea, so I'm going to eliminate them from consideration.

That leaves Mr. FLUSH with Keep (2c 4c 6c Kc) and a 'suited' Toss (4 7), which we must compare and contrast with Keep (2 4 4 K) and Toss (6 7), our lovely aforementioned 'Crib Cousin' with all of her charms. As I said, while Toss (4 7) isn't completely terrible, it does 'chime in' with a Crib Value below Four Points. That's a key consideration.

One of the many beauties of Toss (6 7) is that it's the highest-valued Discard Choice we can make that initially begins with ZERO POINTS! In fact, if you wish to commit just one fact to memory today, let it be the fact that Toss (6 7) has a Crib Value or average that beats many PAIRS, discards such as Toss (K K), Toss (T T), Toss (Q Q).

Additionally, while Toss (6 7) is not better-than, it even competes very well with both Toss (9 9) and Toss (A A)! And also, just for future reference, its profile 'over the board' is quite similar: Toss (6 7) is riskier than many of those PAIRS just mentioned, and even a few more!

If we ignore pegging, we might Toss (2 K), or Toss (4 4), or Toss (4 7) 'suited' today, and even Toss (6 K) and Toss (2 6) might be on the RADAR! Oh, what a tangled web James500 does weave for us today! Toss (4 4) has an attractive Crib Value, but much of it comes from the fact that it's a PAIR and thus already contains Two Points; but let's remember, those Two Points exist whether we retain the two 4 Cards in our Hand or in our Crib!

This is the 'magic' of Toss (6 7): its strength comes not from where it starts off, but in its potential for future GROWTH. But is it 'Good Enough' to 'make up for' a few points in 'static' value? That's quite a bit of 'leaning' to do, even on the charming Toss (6 7) 'cousin' we have all come to know and love. It can easily overcome One Point of differential in 'static' value, but Two Points is a VERY TALL ORDER.

It hurts to think of rejecting Toss (6 7) here, but I think it may be comparable to Toss (2 K), which no doubt may have lots of adherents today. In the end, however, I'm going to rely on Mr. FLUSH and Toss (4 7), the 'suited' duo that hopefully doesn't 'fizzle' on us! The FLUSH should allow very good flexibility during the pegging, as Pone is most likely to be lobbing cards that differ from those ranks that we already hold.
Gougie00
5724 votes

Joined: March 2008

 
 
 
Thursday 4:18 AM
I needed to connect here and get back in the game. I swung and missed. Better luck next time.
mrob2199
1429 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Thursday 4:20 AM
We need a decent hand to get into position on 4th street-obviously this hand will need a good cut to achieve that goal-another benefit of the 4467 keep is the possibility of trapping a 5 for some much needed pegging help
dec
6352 votes

Joined: April 2008

 
 
 
Thursday 4:45 AM
This is more about playing to win then nickel-diming our way to start preventing the skunk. Need a big cut and might peg our way into some more points here. dec
Rosemarie44
2052 votes

Joined: March 2016

 
 
 
Thursday 4:50 AM
I believe this is the best hand to hold for a maximum of 16 possible.
thelawnet
262 votes

Joined: January 2020

 
 
 
Thursday 4:58 AM
4467 has potential both for our hand and for pegging . The flush would be nice at a more comfortable spot for us, which this isnt
HfxKen
881 votes

Joined: February 2020

 
 
 
Thursday 5:20 AM
Was going to hold the flush but thought the hand I kept had most chance of improving with the cut.

If pone tossed some low cards, crib could hold a nice surprise .
mfetchCT425
1395 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Thursday 5:24 AM
At this position I think this hold gives us the best chance to get back in the game in case we get that ‘gut’ cut 5, or even a 4. Some pegging potential as well. Considered he flush but not at this position. Also not the most ‘pretty’ flush to hold.
JRCeagle78
1054 votes

Joined: June 2016

 
 
 
Thursday 5:44 AM
With this discard and starter card I still have a chance at the flush in the crib. Even if that does not happen K-2 is a better option than other choices.

With this hand the pegging will be either hit or miss. The pone needs to give us a little assistance. Trapping a 5 is remote, but a possibility nonetheless.

I looked at the flush but 4-7 discard was too far from optimal.
Jazzselke
2583 votes

Joined: March 2009

 
 
 
Thursday 6:43 AM
Not crazy about the 4-point flush, as we would be throwing 47, while holding a second 4. Potential with 2446 and 2447, but 6K and 7K are horrible. So 2K it is.
james500
3917 votes

Joined: June 2013

 
 
 
Thursday 6:44 AM
I really wanted to choose 6-7, it's a useful discard and allows me to keep the 2-4-K sixteen, but chickened out and chose the more conventional 2-K sigh.

Only cuts of 3 and X fail to improve my hand, but cuts of 3 and K will help the crib, and a Jack cut gives me two points anyway. Just 10s and Queens to avoid then.
JQT says: It's a great puzzle, and if there's a need to sigh after Toss (2 K), it may still be the best choice. The problem here is the poor arrangement of cards along with a very crucial relative position. I find the position to be the best aspect of this puzzle, because if we were dealt a 'normal' or average hand (or better) here, we probably do enjoy a very slight positional advantage, something that's difficult to ascertain. But given these poor cards, we are likely to let any slight advantage slip away, regardless of our discard decision. And so, this may be a matter of how to 'lose by less' or to somehow manage our dilemma. Pone is however unaware (so far) of the nature of our predicament, and if we can induce a pegging error or miscalculation, we may retain equal odds of winning. Two more deals shall likely follow, so I believe our main task here is to prevent doing too much damage to our position, but unfortunately, the usual cure for this is to get some POINTS! And that's precisely what we are lacking here, with *any* discard after that awful Cut Card. Again, I think this is a great puzzle.
Ras2829 says: Hi james500: Just an echo to JQT here. Great puzzle - keep 'em coming!
james500 says: Hi both, thank you for all your kind words.
wasa
3013 votes

Joined: November 2014

 
 
 
Thursday 7:02 AM
I like to flush and I cannot lie
You other brothers can't deny
When I see 4 cards all of the same suit
It makes me think other tosses are moot

(with apologies to Sir Mix-a-Lot)
JQT says: When you're finally dealt four of all the same suit You take those other two and go give them the boot
SallyAnn3 says: lol wasa--good one :) you too JQT
SallyAnn3
904 votes

Joined: March 2020

 
 
 
Thursday 7:59 AM
Mesemerized by the flush again. It's all trash, no matter what I throw, and could get a fill in run
SallyAnn3 says: What showed was my first idea, then changed to the flush. sigh.
horus93
1281 votes

Joined: December 2017

 
 
 
Thursday 8:16 AM
With bad cards in this position we should play offense unless we cut a 5
Ras2829
5146 votes

Joined: November 2008

 
 
 
Thursday 10:44 AM
Nothing to defend here; so it's off., off., optimal. Note the downshift in strategy once seeing the starter card, knowing that RAS has only four points, and likely not much in crib. N/D needs 11 points to deal from 4th street CPZ (95-99). As mentioned by others will try to trap a five with the 4-6. On a X-point lead play the 7, count will generally advance to 27, score the 31-2 with the four of hearts (fake the flush). Dealer now has 4-6 remaining after having seen two X-pointers. Dealer will often end the pegging battle with 15-5 and last card. That's 8 unanswered pegs. That's the plan and that will often work once seeing a X-pointers as a lead. If we can pick 2-4 points out of crib (cribs average 4.8), will need an average hands on the next deal. Admittedly there is not much difference in holding the flush. My scant empirical evidence suggests less than .2 of a point favoring the 4-4-6-7. The reason for that slight edge is not the discard as the 4-7 3.611 wins out over the 2-K at 3.568. Holding 4-4-6-7 has the edge because of the higher pegging potential and the better potential hand score.
Ras2829 says: BTW important to note the tremendous difference in discard averages when comparing your crib averages to those of your opponent. When discarding to own crib 43/91 score less than 4.0 points. When tossing those cards on the other side of the board, only 2/91 score 4.0 or less. Those are great differences and emphasize the need to have knowledge about discard values on either side of the board as one set of numbers will not work very well. Dealers often look surprised when they turn that crib and discover a mere tow points. If you do a bar graph on all crib scores form 0-29, the longest bar on the graph is the two bar followed by the four bar. Half of all cribs will be four points or less. Cribs of 12 points or more are less than 5% of the total.
thelawnet says: The 7 reply to an X lead works well generally as pone may be more nervous of 31-8 when holding a 7 By contrast it's relatively risk free for pone to pair 8,9,X after an X lead
Ras2829 says: BTW if you would like to know the percentages for any crib count 0-29, e-mail raswino29@outlook.com.
dgergens
938 votes

Joined: January 2018

 
 
 
Thursday 12:09 PM
Would have violated the time rule for deciding today. Gamble on the cut or gamble on the crib. The possibilities for the cut edged out my faith in the crib, assuming pegging results would be nearly same for both hands.
dgergens says: So based on HalsCrib it makes sense why it took so long to decide, because the hands are so close in value. Plus my idea the pegging would be essentially same is supported by Hals numbers. I'm always happy if I reach the correct conclusions despite not having any of the data committed to memory.
RubyTuesday
909 votes

Joined: January 2019

 
 
 
Thursday 12:10 PM
I failed to spot the flush, but even if I had I think I’d still have thrown 2K.
Coeurdelion
5589 votes

Joined: October 2007

 
 
 
Thursday 3:01 PM
I think it will be between the flush, 4-4-6-7 (2-K) and 2-6-7-K (4-4):

2-4C-6-K: 4pts + 4pts (Schell: 3.72) = 8pts

4-4-6-7: 4pts + 3½pts (Schell: 3.52) = 7½pts

2-6-7-K: 2pts + 5¾pts (Schell: 5.63) = 7¾pts

Potential:

2-4C-6-K: Improves with AAAA, 222, 3333, 44, 5555, 666, 777, 9999, KKK = 30 cuts = 30/46 = 65.2% up to 8/11pts with 3333, 5555, 9999 = 12 cuts. Plus 9 clubs for 1pt extra for the flush = 9/46 = 0.20pt.

4-4-6-7: Improves with AAAA, 222, 44, 5555, 666, 777, 8888, 9999 = 27 cuts = 27/46 = 58.7% up to 8/9/12pts with 44, 5555, 777, 8888 = 13 cuts.

2-6-7-K: Improves with 222, 3333, 5555, 666, 777, 8888, 9999, KKK = 28 cuts = 28/46 = 60.9% up to 6/7pts with 222, 5555, 666, 777, 8888 = 17 cuts.

Position:

We're 3pts past second street positional hole and Pone is 2pts short of where they would like to be so I'll tend towards a more Defensive approach.

Pegging:

Playing Defense I think 2-4C-6-K and 2-6-7-K will peg better and the flush will be harder to read.

Summary:

The flush has the highest starting value by ¼/½pt and has most cuts for improvement. It also has 12 cuts for 8/11pts which compares quite well with 13 for 8-12pt with 4-4-6-7 and 17 cuts for 6/7pts for 2-6-7-K. The flush also has an extra 0.20pt for a club cut. So I'll throw the 4-7.

HalscribCLX
5312 votes

Joined: February 2008

 
 
 
Thursday 3:57 PM
At 73*-84 playing a Defense strategy for the pegging the dynamic expected averages and Win/Loss %s are:

_______________Pone
Defense__Hand__Pegs__Crib__Total___W3 %____W4 %
4-4-6-7___6.70+(-1.93)+3.50=8.27____11.5____24.9
2-4C-6-K__6.54+(-1.98)+3.64=8.20____10.3____24.6
2-6-7-K___4.13+(-2.20)+5.52=7.45_____9.5____24.2
2-4-4-7___6.35+(-2.09)+3.12=7.38_____8.2____22.7

Defense_____L3 %____L4 %
4-4-6-7_____42.2____66.4
2-4C-6-K____43.0____67.3
2-6-7-K_____41.5____67.6
2-4-4-7_____42.3____69.7

4-4-6-7 is best for expected averages by 0.07pt over the flush and is also slightly better for both Win %s and Loss %s which take account of board position and in this critical situation are important. So I'll select 2-K to discard.

After the 10C cut I'll play Optimally to the lead (cautious offense).