November 17, 2020

*** This hand was suggested by Ras2829
0-0*  ?
66%
18%
7%
2%
2%
0%
0%
0%
Total votes: 202
Ras2829Non dealer strategy offense on opening deal. With these cards, what is that?
Rosemarie44
2051 votes

Joined: March 2016

 
 
 
Tuesday 3:10 AM
Early in the game, going with expected averages and holding this hand and tossing 3-K to opponent.
This hand has more cuts for improvement from 6 to 8 points.
Rosemarie44 says: Offense would most likely be a toss of 6-9 to dealer for a chance to increase that hand to 12 maximum.
Rosemarie44 says: I tossed 6-9 on the 10th but forgot all about it.
Ras2829 says: Hi Rosemarie44 and others: Sorry about the duplicate one week apart. As a moderator should have noticed it. I need lots of help. You can bet it won't show again in a week!
Rosemarie44 says: Hi Ras2829: Sorry I didn't catch it either. See JQT's response below:"We're gonna keep doing once each week until everyone agrees."
JQT says: Yeah, my response was sort of a re-working of that facetious, time-honored utterance that, "Daily thrashings shall stop once the morale improves."
james500
3895 votes

Joined: June 2013

 
 
 
Tuesday 3:15 AM
I'll throw a K-9 sized spanner in Dealer's works.

Every cut increases the value of this hand.

6(6)-X(16)-3(19)-X(29)-A(30)-go-A(31/4) would be a welcome pegging sequence.
mrob2199
1407 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Tuesday 3:21 AM
I thought we had this hand recently-no need to throw 2 away to keep 4 here-play it safe and look for a better spot later on
dec
6327 votes

Joined: April 2008

 
 
 
Tuesday 4:07 AM
You can usually peg with sub par hands but hoping for a few minimal cuts counts out the balking discard for me. I think the 6-9 to many times turns into a six point crib. So its A-4-5-6-7-8-9 cuts hopefully here. Easier to slow down game here then go for it here. dec
Andy (muesli64)
2221 votes

Joined: August 2009

 
 
 
Tuesday 4:34 AM
Ras indicates he wants us to throw 6-9. So here goes!
mfetchCT425
1382 votes

Joined: February 2009

 
 
 
Tuesday 5:03 AM
Looking back at past hands I believe we had this identical hand on Nov 10, 2020. I’m sticking to what I did back then. Like the pegging potential here as well. Even though A-A-3-6 is helped by every cut and allows us to toss the super defensive 9-K, I like this hold slightly better, and 3-K is a top 20 defensive discard as well.
james500 says: Hi Mike, hope all's well. Your memory is clearly better than mine, as I didn't recognise this puzzle. You're quite right though.
zeke76
1367 votes

Joined: August 2018

 
 
 
Tuesday 5:19 AM
I thought I remembered what Andy said.
Mark6
702 votes

Joined: June 2020

 
 
 
Tuesday 5:39 AM
4 Points for me and none to his Crib is my Choice to begin this game
warquaker says: I completely missed this.
Eolus619 says: Mark...fyi...this was my original choice on 11/10..suggest you read Ras’s comments near the bottom on that date ..see what you think about the point he makes ..all the best
Mark6 says: Tanks . I see Hal’s AA36 preferred Hold went from 11% of the Voters a week ago down to 8%Today ( so far with about 30 Votes still outstanding ) . Picked the same Hand both times and didn’t remember from a week ago
Mark6 says: Thanks I mean . Answer to Ras above : sometimes Balking the Crib is the best relative Offense
Jazzselke
2569 votes

Joined: March 2009

 
 
 
Tuesday 6:26 AM
I believe the offense here could be the pegging. The 69 combo may work, and the aces up top: 6-9 - 9- 5 and then AA (31 for 4).
Jazzselke says: Did not peek at Nov 10th before my throw or comments. Interesting. Did not contemplate this pegging strategy back then. Still agree with the discard.
RubyTuesday
896 votes

Joined: January 2019

 
 
 
Tuesday 6:39 AM
I threw the same on the 10th, but didn’t remember having done so.
JQT
4136 votes

Joined: October 2008

 
 
 
Tuesday 6:44 AM
We're gonna keep doing this once each week until everyone agrees.
Eolus619 says: i’m still a bit “stunned” by Hal’s choice yesterday...3 “negatives” make a positive ...whew JQT says: Isn't Cribbage Grand? The hand that scores less, pegs less, and yields more in the Opponent's Crib, and therefore has an overall lower total, WINS a far greater percentage of the time! Ras2829 says: How will I ever learn to play this game? One lifetime is definitely not enough!
JQT says: Yesterday, as Pone at Hole 111, we did NOT need the Most Points, we needed TEN Points. And not only did one specific card, a Ten Card or "T" give us sufficient points to WIN, but notice that ALSO a 9d (Diamond-Suited 9 Card) additionally gave us Nine Points. (Since we were dealt the 2d, there was no similar Deuce Cut the gave us Nobs.) Those Five Cards gave that Keep (5 9 9 J) hand an 11% chance of Cutting our Way to Nine Points or more, and thus worst-case, just needing to peg One Hole. That was NOT an easy puzzle, but I think what makes it quite special is that is IS solvable, even under ordinary game time and conditions.
cwed
1355 votes

Joined: October 2014

 
 
 
Tuesday 6:50 AM
Didn't we just see this hand and position a week ago?
Eolus619
1313 votes

Joined: June 2020

 
 
 
Tuesday 6:56 AM
looking back...the 11/10 comments had three lessons for me: 1) Rob said first pone does not need to be in all out offense mode...in fact it’s a bad % play 2) JQT and Andy reminded us of the explosive potential of keeping A-A-3 in a hand and then Ras reminded us 3) of the “total” point aspects of evaluating a hand that gets Pone furthest toward 121. Reinforcing those three points for me is a valuable reminder.
Gougie00
5702 votes

Joined: March 2008

 
 
 
Tuesday 7:06 AM
I agree with Mike, we saw this puzzle or something similar a few weeks ago. Dealt garbage and having to deal with it. Lead an ace?
JCM
910 votes

Joined: April 2019

 
 
 
Tuesday 7:29 AM
To JQT - you answered a Q I had yesterday, but I didn't get to it until today. Just a thank you!

Follow up: You wrote that with 7-8-9-J cards, leading the 8 was the best way(if not in end-game).

I'm wondering-would there be some 3-card runs where you would be better off leading from the end? eg 5-6-7-K, maybe lead the 5 or 7? (ignoring end-game)

These days, I "lead the middle card" with almost all runs. Seems to work pretty well. But maybe some exceptions are out there?

Thanks in advance - John
JQT says: When leading from (5 6 7 K), my FIRST question would probably be: What did you discard? A LOT of pegging nightmares can be traced back to the discarding phase of the game, and not merely the pegging. In this instance, before I prescribe anything, I would like to see the discard!
JCM says: Perhaps you're suggesting to lead one of the cards you discarded?
JQT says: Okay, let me attack this from a slightly different angle: Try to list ALL of the ways you could be dealt six cards as Pone, and end up retaining Keep (5 6 7 K). What might you have discarded in order to end up with such a hand? Certainly not a PAIR. Perhaps Toss (A K)? Or maybe you were Pone at a score of (116-118*)? It just seems like a very rare hand to end up retaining.
JCM says: I just tossed 5-6-7-K out as a conversation starter. My question really is - how does considering what you discarded inform your choice of lead? Assuming not in an end-game situation. Many thanks
JQT says: I'm sorry if my initial ideas and thoughts above seemed at all flippant; this is certainly never my intent. It's just that Keep (5 6 7 K) is NOT a typical hand that I think Pone would retain, and so if someone got into pegging trouble and asked me where things went wrong, just out of curiosity, I would very much like to know what was discarded in order to have retained such a hand. Or, to put it another way: when things go very badly during the pegging, this can often (not always of course) be traced back to an improper discard. Keep that thought in mind while you play, and if the pegging seems very tenuous and difficult, jot down those troublesome hands and discards, and then later see if maybe another discard would have been more appropriate. Even from (A 5 6 7 K K), Toss (A K) probably isn't as good in many instances as Toss (A 7)! That Keep (5 6 7 K) just looks a bit suspect if you've played this game as I have for over five decades. Now, I know you're simply looking for an answer as what to lead if you held such a hand, and I would say the 7 Card in almost all circumstances and/or board positions is correct. Leading the King here of course will "jam us up" after the Dealer predictably responds with a 5 Card and grabs an early (15-2), so we should likely look to lead from the RUN. An old axiom of mine, which mostly applies to the latter stages of the pegging, is that, "When in Doubt, Push that Count!" This is applicable mostly as we approach a Count of Thirty-One, but it still is a useful tactic, even when considering the initial lead card. Doing so reduces the Opponent's options in many cases, and it allows us to retain our lower-ranking cards, which are often the goal-getters when pegging in Cribbage.
JCM
910 votes

Joined: April 2019

 
 
 
Tuesday 8:32 AM
I tend to give away the 9-6, with hands like this at the start of the game. Usually pays off, though can backfire.

I seem to be in the minority here, though :-)
warquaker
238 votes

Joined: July 2020

 
 
 
Tuesday 8:47 AM
I am not giving up 2pt to retain 4pts hence the toss. Going to lead the 9.
Eolus619 says: suggest you go to 11/10 /20 and read Ras’s post near the bottom of comments ...and of course we all have “free will” as it relates to cribbage discard choices ..all the best
JCM says: Yeah - Ras(and JQT) argue AGAINST discarding 9-6 here - time for me to learn something.
JQT says: Yes, we've pushed the battle on this puzzle toward comparing Toss (3 K) with Toss (9 K). After the latter, any Cut gives us at least Two Points (more), and so in either case, we begin with Four Points in our hand, and no certain points in the Opponent's Crib. And, tossing a Trey diminishes our own hand, while strengthening the enemy Crib! I like Keep (A A 3 6) and Toss (9 K) because we begin with Four Points (after any Cut) and we deliver the most defensive discard over the board.
SallyAnn3
882 votes

Joined: March 2020

Tuesday 1:59 PM
I'm with you JCM. Was taught not to fear the 6-9 nor 9-9 toss, esp when I can get 8-12 with a good cut.
JQT says: While Toss (6 9) as Pone is not to be feared, we can similarly seek that Dozen Points after Toss (6 K) today as well, and do so with a much safer discard. But furthermore, I still believe that we can look even deeper and Toss (9 K), which is often even safer than Toss (6 K), and now we can retain a better pegging hand, a hand that grows with EVERY CUT, and will quite readily and often become Six or Eight Points.